When is enough enough?

[slackywacky]

This came up as part of the fictional story I am writing and I figured instead of breaking up the story with a discussion, I'll post it here, as it has some interesting angles to it. In the story, Kyleigh is held captive (after agreeing to it) as part of a study. She has been cuffed in a room for 7 days so far. Read the full story here: http://www.tugstories.com/viewtopic.php ... 927#p37643

Ceasar73 responded with the following (partial quote):

This Experiment is bizarre One must feel sorry for the poor test subject

I agree and it is the most difficult part of the story to write, as how does one feel after being restrained for 7 days? I never been restrained for that long myself and figuring out the state of mind for both captor and captive is an interesting challenge. It made me really think about the mental process that is part of bondage. Somebody once said, bondage is not bondage until you want out, which in a sense is true and getting to that point is actually more difficult than most people think I find. Yes, after being tied up for a while you want out, but do you really want out or are you just bored with the situation? What if you can't get out, like Kyleigh in the story?

When I am tied up through selfbondage, tied to a chair, gagged, blindfolded, ear plugged, I can really relax, but after a while, sometimes 10 minutes, sometimes an hour, I have enough and I can undo the leather cuffs and I can untie all the ropes. I have sat in the same chair, tied the same way, but locked into handcuffs, taking my ability away for release and I have sat for 4 hours on the same spot. After 4 hours (I think the longest has been 5 hours) I did not mind getting released, but on the other hand I wanted to stay tied longer as I was disappointed it was over.

Being pushed to that point where bondage becomes real bondage and I would fight to get out, not just try to get out, but really fight to get out, scream as loud as I can and beg to the person who is releasing you and promise everything for him/her to release you, because I really do not want to sit tied on that chair anymore, has not happened to me yet.

I would love to find out where that point is, but I have no idea how long that would take.

Thoughts? Have you ever been to that point, either as captor, where your captive really wanted out, or as captive, where you would have done anything to get out? Any other thoughts related to the above?

[bondagefreak]

Scottstud94 might have some insights to share with you.

Since the tagging system is temporarily disabled, I'd suggest messaging him and asking him to join this discussion.
Pretty sure he'd have some relevant experiences to add.

[Caesar73]

I agree and it is the most difficult part of the story to write, as how does one feel after being restrained for 7 days? the other hand I wanted to stay tied longer as I was disappointed it was over.

I imagine that writing that part of the story must be difficult, the more so it stands in stark contrast to the other chapters of this really great saga, since the tone is much darker. The more I admire the quality these chapters which must be difficutl to write. Good work!

[Sniffmyfeet]

Since the tagging system is temporarily disabled, I'd suggest messaging him and asking him to join this discussion.

I think you can still use it, but not by putting @ before someone's name. You have to type the code yourself:

Code: Select all

[mention]Username[/mention]

For example, if I replace "Username" with "Sniffmyfeet", it shows the following:
[mention]Sniffmyfeet[/mention]

[drawscore]

Study or game, it doesn't matter. If the "captive" wants to be untied, he/she is untied ASAP. No questions, no crap, no bullshit!

[slackywacky]

Yeah... nope, can't say I agree. Begging for release (for me) is part of game. I will always ask/beg/scream for release, whatever I think I will work, but unless the request contains the safe-word (and I played without one too, with people who know me really well and whop I trust), I am not getting out, or the person tied by me is not getting out.

And, just to make sure, I am not saying in the original question (see first post) that you should not release the sub, I am asking if anybody has been to that point where the safe-word was required, that point where bondage really became bondage.

[Amberbound]

I agree with the fact that some people want to beg for release and not get it, but it definitely is a fine line to make. Basically you would need to come up with a condition for that with whoever is tying you. More than just a safe word, cause then the struggling is just pretend, which isn't what you want (If I understand correctly). Maybe something like having to struggle for a certain amount of time, or have to do something your captor wants for a while before they finally untie you.

Under pretty much any other condition I agree with drawscore there, they need to be let out if they ask for emergencies

[bondagefreak]

Yeah... nope, can't say I agree. Begging for release (for me) is part of game. I will always ask/beg/scream for release, whatever I think I will work...

It's no use debating this. Trust me, many of us have tried and failed.
I can link you to a handful of threads where subs have they themselves risen up to defend what they feel as legitimate, only to be brushed off and ignored.

We have a few puritan-type users on the board who like to preach about values that never transition beyond what you'd teach a child. If you dig up their posts of old, you'll find that most of them have only played TUGs as little kids and adhered to strict rules of "no tug lasting more than twenty minutes".
Reasonable rules for little kids, but a bit absurd on an adult board that deals with themes of BDSM/Tugs/Bedroom-Bondage. The level of preachiness we see here feels very shallow and out of place, and serves no other purpose than to cause an argument. Drawscore CLEARLY hasn't read your original post.


For most subs on here (and all of the subs I've met in RL through meetup platforms), struggling, screaming and moaning to be let out if part of the fun. It doesn't take a particularly sharp Dom to notice a change in facial expressions or a change in the tone of the captive's pleading, but it does require an attentive one.

I think that if there's any preachiness to be had, it should be about Doms paying adequate attention to their subs. But more importantly, this thread has nothing do to with any of this.



The only ones who can provide an answer to the original questions are subs that have signed temporary contracts with BDSM Masters/Mistresses (I know a few who have) or couples/friends with benefits who indulge in long/weekend sessions.
Den might be able to give you some input next time he shows up, but atm I believe your best bet for a valuable "insider's view" comes from Scottstud94.



I don't have that much to add myself, since my longer sessions as a bondage-top only last about 8-9 hours.
Captives are always glad to be freed and regain the use of their mouths and limbs.
Some of the guys I play with are extremely vocal and get off on attempting to mouth off and call for help through their gags.

The screams sound pretty legit sometimes, to the point where they used to fool me into thinking they were in trouble. The times I DID crouch down to check and see if they wanted premature release, I got a firm shake of the head indicating a "no". My temporary and very much out-of-place kindness seemed to irritate them and disrupt the kidnap fantasies they had running through their heads.


There is a fine line to be crossed here.
However, after having spent nearly a decade on this board, I've come to note that much of the misunderstanding between say Drawscore and myself, comes from the fact that we're talking about two radically different things.

The board has changed a lot over the past years.
From what I understand, Drawscore used to play bondage games with other kids and teens when he was in summer camp or part of the boy scouts. Most of those kids undoubtedly outgrew tugs and it doesn't affect their lives anymore.

I, on the other hand, fool around with bondage fetishists...people who are willing to spend lots of cash on gear and people who are sometimes willing to travel great distances to exprience a temporary (yet total) loss of control.
It's not for everyone. But subs who enjoy the loss of control and the Doms who safely indulge them shouldn't be made to feel unclean or marginal.

There's room on here for everyone (minus a few exceptions ).
IMO, that's why we have seperate sections for G-rated material and Mature-rated content.

[Deleted User 2786]

Study or game, it doesn't matter. If the "captive" wants to be untied, he/she is untied ASAP. No questions, no crap, no bullshit!

This is the funniest thing I’ve read all day. I think my brothers growing up never learned this lesson

[Deleted User 2786]

Yeah... nope, can't say I agree. Begging for release (for me) is part of game. I will always ask/beg/scream for release, whatever I think I will work, but unless the request contains the safe-word (and I played without one too, with people who know me really well and whop I trust), I am not getting out, or the person tied by me is not getting out.

I have some insight on this too if you ever wanna message me we can chat

[Sniffmyfeet]

[mention]Bondagefreak[/mention] those are wise words. I believe that you're right and that that's the reason there are two ways of looking at TUGs on this forum. It's also one of the reasons why a story that is tagged as m/m (as opposed to M/M) doesn't get read by me; bondage is for me way too closely related to sex to have children involved. But at the same time I don't condemn those who like to read stories about children playing TUGs, because they read such stories from a very different viewpoint.

[drawscore]

I think that with consenting adults, there must be a "safe word," (or safe 'noise' if gagged, like three short 'mmmppfff's') to indicate a desire or need to be released.

With kids, it's different. If they are playing 'cops and robbers,' or 'cowboys and Indians,' they probably have no concept of sexuality, and are just having fun and using their imaginations. Gags, if any, are usually bandanas or handkerchiefs, which can be easily pushed out, and the need or desire to be untied could be verbally expressed.

Between 9 and 15, my friends and I, tied and got tied a bunch. Dares, challenges, games, and so on. I do not recall having any thoughts of sex at all, when tying someone, or being tied. We were kids, they were games, and, to us, it was fun. So were baseball, football, swimming, camping, bowling, and the other games we played and the things we did as kids.

Drawscore

[slackywacky]

As kids, we never considered 'time limits' or 'safety' for that matter. I did some stupid shit as a kid (mostly bondage related) and only later looking back you go like "It is a miracle nobody ever got hurt." Yeah, there were some 'friends' that did not want to talk to us anymore after a game, because we tied them up and kept them prisoner too long, or times where I was really glad to be untied. We also never heard of the 'do not leave a bound and gagged person alone' rule. We would tie somebody (or get tied) and the rest of us would go play football/soccer, two blocks over.

Growing older you consider those really important rules a lot more. But it takes some of the fun away. Things like being tightly tied and locked in a cupboard by your friend, who than has to go somewhere with his parents without having time to get you untied, does not happen anymore.

Yes, I understand there is different views on the subject, that makes us human. And we all have different wishes.

> We were kids, they were games

Exactly. Now when we play we have safe words/sounds. And as adults (most of us turned into them) we consider consequences more than kids do. Sometimes I wish I was that 10 year old kid again, spending a lot of time (every opportunity I got) getting tied or tying.

> My temporary and very much out-of-place kindness seemed to irritate them

It is the fine line (as you stated already) between real life drama and role play. I knew people too who will give it all they have to get out of a bondage situation, including verbal noises, so when they suddenly become very quiet, I knew something was wrong and I'll acted. For some it is clear to distinguish that difference. But others I would not be able to tell if what they are trying to communicate is real or not, and that is why we have safe words/sounds.

But I still want to get to that point where I really want out, where it is not just being bored with the situation I am in. Have not been there yet (and doing it at home is difficult with other people living in the house, you cant really scream your lungs out, as everybody would hear). Someday I will find somebody who can assist with that wish.

[cellofello]

If they are playing 'cops and robbers,' or 'cowboys and Indians,' they probably have no concept of sexuality, and are just having fun and using their imaginations.

I wonder just how probable that "probably" is. I know that even at the age of four I found the idea of being tied up sexually arousing, although at the time I didn't know those words were the ones to use to describe what I was feeling.

[Fesselfan]

I think that with consenting adults, there must be a "safe word," (or safe 'noise' if gagged, like three short 'mmmppfff's') to indicate a desire or need to be released.

Must there be? By which law? Sure, it can be helpfull especially with not so good known partners...but if two people trust each other very far, and consent not to have a saveword...and are aware of the risks...its ok.
Actually, with my longer lasting bondage partners there was always one point where we decided to "officially" ditch the safeword. Even if it had never been used.

An attentive dom will notice anyway when something is really wrong with his well known sub. Often enough even before the sub knows it...which is another problem of safewords. If you play more than "cuddly" BDSM games, often enough, when a sub really should use a safeword she is often enough not anymore in a mental state to actually decide so and do it.

Cheers

FF

[slackywacky]

Actually, with my longer lasting bondage partners there was always one point where we decided to "officially" ditch the safe word. Even if it had never been used.

Safe words have a tendency to screw up some good plays, I have been in those situations, I had a safe word and I used it because I was bored between two interactions with the person who tied me, it completely broke the mood and there was no real reason why I should have used it. Hence it turned into a 'check up' word in later plays. There would be no release, that was up to the binder, but it was a quick check to see if the 'game' was still going in the right direction.

And indeed with trust and experience, you might not need one at all.

[drawscore]

The bottom line, is that it IS a game, and a game is supposed to be fun. Even as adults, in our hearts and minds, it's being a kid again, and playing "Cowboys and Indians," or "Cops and Robbers.' We decide for ourselves, what is "fun," and we all probably have different definitions.

Some think being spread eagled, staked out, or hog tied, to a point where escape is next to impossible, is "fun." Others have vivid imaginations, and create a fantasy in their minds, about escaping and outwitting their captors.

But whatever you do, think, or imagine, it's supposed to be fun, and everyone involved needs to agree on defined limits, before you tie the first knot. And, each person sets his own limits, as in "I want to be hog tied really good, but if I give three short "mmmppfff's," that means I want to be untied." or "Tie me the best you can, then leave me alone. Check me occasionally, but If I'm not out in an hour, untie me, unless I say I want to stay tied longer." And the big thing, is that those limits have to be known and respected by ALL of the other "players."

But the end all and be all (and I've said this before) is that it's supposed to be fun for all involved. When it stops being fun, it becomes abuse. (And a damn good way to ruin a friendship or relationship.)

Drawscore

[slackywacky]

it's supposed to be fun for all involved

But 'fun' does not mean it can't be restrictive or long or ...

As @drawscore said, everybody has different definitions, limits and goals of what they want to get out of a session.
Play safe, have fun.

[Fesselfan]

The bottom line, is that it IS a game, and a game is supposed to be fun. Even as adults, in our hearts and minds, it's being a kid again, and playing "Cowboys and Indians," or "Cops and Robbers.' We decide for ourselves, what is "fun," and we all probably have different definitions.

I beg to mildly differ here...while for you it may be that way, for others its different. For my sub and me, it has little to do with some kids games or childhood flashbacks. For us, the whole BDSM thing is a way of life. Even when we are not doing a session, its always present...in the way we interact with each other.

But the end all and be all (and I've said this before) is that it's supposed to be fun for all involved. When it stops being fun, it becomes abuse.
Drawscore

Some do find fun in abuse..but of course that's a thin line to walk on. Just wanted to point out, everybody should do as they want...but not all want the same & there is no universal truth.

Cheers

FF